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 Post subject: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:52 am 
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Hi

This photo of a He111 is on ebay http://www.ebay.de/itm/orig-Foto-Kameraden-Flugzeug-He-111-Staffelabzeichen-Gruppe-Wappen-Adler-/180759003849?pt=Militaria&hash=item2a161382c9. I have had a good look through Ketley and Rolfe and emblem looks like that of 4.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 122, although the eagle is closer to that of Aufkl.Gr. 124.

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Ian


Attachments:
Heinkel He 111H, 4.(F).Aufkl.Gr. 122, (eBay) (1).jpg
Heinkel He 111H, 4.(F).Aufkl.Gr. 122, (eBay) (1).jpg [ 90.64 KB | Viewed 3715 times ]


Last edited by ianatheling on Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Ian,

I would have to say that going on the fact that the "eagles" wings are outside of the shield I would look at (F)124 or 5./Erg.Gr.(F).

Do you know if the tube on the strut is in a standard location for a pitot tube on the He 111H - if not then this may be a Westa aircraft and that may not be an "eagle" but a flying frog - e.g. of Westa 76...

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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:53 am 
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Hi Andy
Thanks for the suggestions. I had a look for the tube on numerous He 111 nose close-ups and have not found it elsewhere. I assume that it is a non-standard fit. However I also found several westa He 111s and didn’t find it there either. In David Wadman’s Aufklärer, Vol. 1 p. 66 there is a nose image which shows meteorological sensors which I don’t believe I can see on the photo above.

With reference to the emblem, I think that Westa 76 (Ketley & Rolfe 670) can be ruled out since the wings of the frog are straight. I think that the picture also shows a shield rather than an oval. I am also fairly sure that it is an eagle/bird rather than a frog. There are similarities with the wings of the Frog of the Westa 5 emblem (#666), but the photo appears to show a white eagle with its head dipped down on the left hand side. I would not totally rule out Ketley and Rolfe #668 attributed elsewhere as belonging to Westa 8. This has a similar eagle, but I cannot see the key carried by the eagle or the Athenian temple underneath.

The eagle of 5./Erg.Gr. (F) (795) is certainly the correct shape, but wrong colour. The Eagle of Aufkl.Gr. 124 is the right shape and colour and has the diving head. However the version in Ketley & Rolfe #593 has the Eiffel Tower to the rear. I do not see this on the photo. However I have a few other versions of the emblem of this unit, without the Eiffel Tower. None are identical to the photo, but indicate that there were variations on the same theme.

I have attached copies of Westa 8, 5.Erg.Gr.(F) and one of the Aufkl.Gr. 124 emblems for comparison.

Regards

Ian


Attachments:
Westa 8.jpg
Westa 8.jpg [ 8.17 KB | Viewed 3670 times ]
5.Erg.Gr. (F).jpg
5.Erg.Gr. (F).jpg [ 5.29 KB | Viewed 3684 times ]
(F).Aufkl.Gr. 124c.jpg
(F).Aufkl.Gr. 124c.jpg [ 17.67 KB | Viewed 3682 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Ian,

I would rule out the emblem attributed to Westa 8 (K & R number 668) until there is confirmation from elsewhere that Westa 8 actually existed. I am always nervous of statements like "official records do not mention this unit...". Have you seen this emblem anywhere other than K & R?

Kington and Selinger do not make reference to this unit in "Wekusta" which gives quite comprehensive histories of the known Westa units.

Neither does Roche in "Luftwaffe Code, Markings and Units" - IIRC this was based on Feldpost numbers so looked at identifying units from a different perspective to what was then the current approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:39 pm 
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Thanks Andy. I do think that this a (F)/Aufkl.Gr.124 aircraft, but will keep my eyes open for this emblem in the future.

Ian


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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Ian,

Try this for size....

Attachment:
Heinkel He 111H Emblem.jpg
Heinkel He 111H Emblem.jpg [ 88.64 KB | Viewed 3635 times ]


Had a play in some photo editors


Definitely an eagle not the same as the 124 emblem example (but that may be an incorrect interpretation.)

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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Ian,

Here is the frog of Westa 5.

But more importantly the pitot tube is in the same location as your aircraft...

Attachment:
westa5_frog.jpg
westa5_frog.jpg [ 134.6 KB | Viewed 3636 times ]
This was from Squadron/Signals - He 111 in Action No 1184 page 26

Still looking!

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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Thanks Andy

I have attached another two versions of the Aufkl.Gr. 124 emblem which I have. This may suggest that there are different modern interpretations of the emblem and/or that there were different versions at the time. I am not going to rule out this being Aufkl.Gr .124 yet, although it would be interesting to find out what is below the eagle on the emblem.

The Westa 5 He 111 photo is the same as that in Wadman, Vol One mentioned above. But this is a better version than Wadman’s (which is cut off before the tube or emblem). Perhaps we need to also reconsider the mystery Westa 8 emblem!?...or another Westa unit.

Ian


Attachments:
agr124b.gif
agr124b.gif [ 9.17 KB | Viewed 3623 times ]
0-emblem-1(F).124-0B.jpg
0-emblem-1(F).124-0B.jpg [ 33.58 KB | Viewed 3633 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:45 am 
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Ian,

In the interests of cross fertilization between boards - see Luftwaffe-experten and TOCH

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 Post subject: Re: Heinkel He 111 with Aufkl. emblem
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Ian,

On the above TOCH thread there is now a posting from "Merlin"

Quote:
this emblem was used by the Führerkurierstaffel from 1941 until the end.
Source: Album in the Peter Petrick archive.

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